http://toys.lerdorf.com/ Rasmus' Toys Page - en Serendipity 1.4-alpha1 - http://www.s9y.org/ Fri, 09 May 2008 20:09:47 GMT http://toys.lerdorf.com/templates/default/img/s9y_banner_small.png http://toys.lerdorf.com/ 100 21 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4107 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (Nazz) Personally, I don't like frameworks. I tend to spend more time trying to figure out the framework than getting anything useful done. I don't see a problem mixing php & html. Web pages are not that complex. Get some data and display it. Validate some input and save it. Abstracting everything out becomes a total nightmare when you try to debug it. Not only that, if you ever take over a project that uses some framework, it will take forever to figure out what the hell is going on. With php,sql,html all in one page, it is obvious and simple and for me, waay easier to maintain. I don't have to go looking for the database class here, the object class over there, blah, blah , blah. Plus those frameworks are slow as a dog. No thanks. I stick to regular old php and a few common libraries. Thu, 08 May 2008 19:55:32 -0700 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4107 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4084 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (Brian Dickson) I can confirm the ideas of this article and the comments of those who agree with the objects of the article. I am living proof. I am a PHP noob, an OOP noob and an MVC noob. You may already be thinking about dismissing my opinion before I can explain my position, pls bear with me. I have been building websites (small ones), over the past four years using Dreamweaver, for both static and dynamic projects, (this is an instance where size DOESN'T matter, trust me). It was only recently when I have been involved in the creation of one of my own projects, that I decided I would have to, do things as I did when I first became interested in computers over twenty five years ago, that is, get my hands dirty in some heavy code. I needed a site that would through up articles and video/audio that was related to the article. I needed to create a tutorial website, that makes heavy use of tracking users actions, article use over time etc. I first looked at the two major open source frameworks, but I soon ran into obstacles when I wanted to do something specific. I spent over three months becoming familiar with both of them before realising a simple truth. Then I spent another month researching PHP frameworks, having been sold the marketing mantra of, access to libraries, cleaner and better, more organised code. Again after trying to wrap my head around MVC and OOP, I realised that same simple truth. What is this truth I speak of? I spent so much time learning these CMSes and frameworks, that I believe I could have competed the the whole project within the same time period, using PHP5 classes and straight HTML/CSS. As for cleaner organised code that you can come back to in a year? I don't understand the argument. If you split your code down into manageble block, as in the example of this article, managability is not an issue. As for code re-use? again, I don't understand. Do people not build up a library of common classes that are well commented? can you simply not include ir call these classes in your future projects or the same project? Enough of this nonsense. It seems people against this Rasmus' comments are simply wishing to defend their particular way of working. I realise I am a guy developing on his own and the needs of a team might be different, but I doubt it. OK, I'm off to do what I should have done three months ago. Thanks Rasmus. PS I found CodeIgniter the lightest framework out there and it doesn't impose too many restrictions. Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:51:22 -0700 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4084 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/35-GeoCool!.html#c4081 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/35-GeoCool!.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=35 nospam@example.com (Steve) Do I need to put a pid# in this code in order to get it working on my website? Please help as I am trying to figure out how to get lat/long coordinates from an address someone types in, its actually a school asignment that I am having some difficulty with, I also need to get the local sunset/sunrise and time. can someone help me please? Thanks so much.. steve107@sympatico.ca Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:20:34 -0700 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/35-guid.html#c4081 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-Looking-for-a-new-1U-box.html#c4080 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-Looking-for-a-new-1U-box.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=47 nospam@example.com (jostein martinsen) http://www.xpcgear.com/sc6015ttb1.html Here you get two servers in the same chassis for $2.8K. So put in dual quad core cpu:s and you'll have 16cpu:s and up to 64 GB ram in the same box :) Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:52:45 -0700 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-guid.html#c4080 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/22-IBM-Thinkpad-T42p.html#c4068 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/22-IBM-Thinkpad-T42p.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=22 nospam@example.com (Chris) Thanks a lot Rasmus! I have a T42p myself that I run Debian Etch on. I really liked your technique of using vnc with a secondary monitor/projector. I set it up too just now and will hopefully use it for presentations from now on. There's one small problem though. Normally I just have a second monitor plugged in, and can move my cursor back and forth between screens (I'm not doing anything fancy, just using the radeon driver along with a dual-head ServerLayout) When using vncserver, though, instead of the cursor stopping at either end of the set of screens, it loops back around several times before eventually being blocked by the edge of a screen. I'm pretty sure this is the result of the cursor switching screens both when I move back and forth and when entering and exiting the xvncviewer window. It becomes nearly impossible to remember where I am. Is there any way I can isolate my cursor to my thinkpad's screen so that entering the xvncviewer window is the only way that I can enter the projector's screen? I know this is an old page of yours, but maybe you have some advice. Thanks again for the wonderful write-up! Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:06:21 -0700 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/22-guid.html#c4068 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4060 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (P Appleton) Thanks for the comment Rex S. I was about to throw myself into Framework Hell but was doubtful about how much use they would be long term. I am currently working on a very tightly frameworked project in .NET and it takes a very long time to make any changes and it is hard to see the logic in one place. The original code generator is no longer used and structures are now coded by hand - it takes forever and is no fun whatsoever. For a comparison my previous project was in ASP and the majority of the logic was held in single ASP pages, maintenance was a breeze and performance was good (the projects were functionally very similar). As a comparison I would say a similar change would take 1 hour on the non framework system and about 1 day on the frameworked system. OK the frameworked system was allowed to get out of hand but when you get a number of people doing their own thing anything can happen. I still think a framework/code generation can be a good thing but you have to watch out for the point where it becomes a hindrance – and it this point you are probably too reliant on it to back out or abandon it. I think Rasmus has demonstrated a viable approach to flexible development philosophy and on a more careful read though of his example it looks even better. I will be trying out his methods and will try to sneak some code generation and framework advantages alongside it. Hey – I want my cake and eat it. The jury is still out for me. Great article thanks. Thu, 06 Mar 2008 02:19:28 -0800 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4060 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4059 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (Cesar D. Rodas) What about of Smarty in the view?, I think it will cause an extra overhead on the server... nice post. Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:58:53 -0800 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4059 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4053 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (tonyb) Bravo! Some sane reasoning for all this recent PHP framework madness. PHP elegance comes form it's simplicity and the ability to be used flexibly . And this framework that Rasmus illustrates, clearly illustrates the only real framework you need. It's simple PHP at its core, just seperated into the basics of MVC. Any PHP developers that have been doing PHP long enough has developed their own frameworks, of course they are not as abstracted or generalized as the big one (PhpCake, Symfony, Seagull), but they get the job done. Agreeing with most of the other posters, frameworks abstract the development process so much , that you'll end spending more time configuring them, looking for file(s) and overall managing the development process instead of actually developing. the time savings in my opinion are negligible and the developer time lost in learning, training or retaining the framework structure is much greater than stock PHP. When it's all said and done the bulk of your coding is in the logic , the controller piece, no framework in the world simpifies that. The only "big" framework I would consider is CodeIgniter, its the one the most closely resembles a grown up version from what Rasmus illustrates here. Programming is hard enough why add more abstraction? Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:04:18 -0800 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4053 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#c4052 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=38 nospam@example.com (Rex S. Sacayan) I really agree with Rasmus, it's a proven and brilliant idea, I have already proven it to myself. I have been using PHP to build website for 4 years using simple PHP programming, and it works very well. Last year I have spent most of my time learning PHP frameworks and looking which is best but I ended up quitting, I never have use any of those in building a website, It's just too complicated and hard to maintain. I prefer to make it simple and less code as much as possible. Clean, secure and fast, that's it! Great article Rasmus! Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:32:55 -0800 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-guid.html#c4052 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-Looking-for-a-new-1U-box.html#c4047 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-Looking-for-a-new-1U-box.html#comments http://toys.lerdorf.com/wfwcomment.php?cid=47 nospam@example.com (Rasmus) Yeah, $8k is a bit high for a personal web/mail server. I am looking more in the $2000-$2500 range. Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:11:04 -0800 http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/47-guid.html#c4047 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/